Is consumer research still relevant in today’s environment?
In this episode of the Visionise C-Suite Spot podcast, we explore the evolution and relevance of consumer research in today's business environment.
Hosted by Rob Iles, Founder & MD of Visionise the panel features top industry leaders Sharon Cahill, Marketing Director at corporate finance firm Corbett Keeling; James Cornish, former Tesco buyer and now an independent insight consultant; Jamie Williams, Managing Partner at London-based creative agency Isobel; and David Wilkinson, newly appointed Associate Commercial Director here at Visionise and former Business Development Director at The Billington Group.
Together, they unpack the shifting role of insight in high-stakes decisions -from deal-making to innovation and discuss the risks of over-relying on data without interpretation. They explore why triangulation is emerging as a leadership skill, where AI can surface patterns but not meaning, and why better questions - more than bigger datasets - often unlock the next growth opportunity.
Tune in for actionable strategies and expert opinions on maximising the value of consumer research.
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Transcript
Rob Iles: Welcome to our latest edition of the Vision Eyes C-Suite Spot podcast. The C-Suite spot was first launched in the midst of lockdown as a way of sharing the great insights and wisdom from our C-suite leaders in our precious network. Vision Eyes is now in its 14th year. Its purpose remains the same.
Helping ambitious leaders optimize their business growth trajectory, enhance their enterprise value, and prepare for exit if that's one of their ambitions. We have a consultancy through to agency delivery model as we are passionate about helping deliver and embed the ideas and plans that we recommend.
We've evolved the C-Suite spot and the format of it is now different. It's made more of a panel discussion with four senior guests in each of the sessions discussing a key topic. Let me now introduce our four panellists for today's podcast. I'm going to try a kind of Fiona Bruce style question time introduction without the glamor.
We are delighted to be joined on the C-Suite spot by Sharon Cahill, the Dynamic Director of marketing at the Citi Base Corporate Finance Company, Corbert Keening. With over 25 years of experience in marketing, advertising, and professional services, Sharon has been instrumental in shaping and driving the brand and communication strategy at Corbert Keeling since early 2024.
Her extensive background includes leadership roles at what's Possible Group have Media Group and MNC Saatchi Group away from the day job. Sharon helps run the show at Richmond Shakespeare Society. She stage manages Amateur Theatre Productions. She's also training to become a Samaritans listener because she has a deep belief in empathy, compassion, and the importance of simply being there for someone.
Sharon's expertise in B2B marketing and her passion for working with founder-led businesses makes her a valuable voice in today's discussion. Welcome, Sharon.
Sharon Cahill: Thank you. All. Pleasure to be here.
Rob Iles: Great., our next panellist is a seasoned voice from the world of advertising. He began, he'll hate this. He began his career in the fast-paced world of New York film production before cutting his teeth at some of UK's most respected agencies, including J-W-T-D-L-K-W, and like Sharon m and c Saatchi.
Since 2012, he's been at the helm of London based independent creative agency, Isabelle, where he now serves as managing partner, known for his insightful writing bold campaigns, keeping a key eye on both culture and politics, particularly across the Atlantic. By the way, you should check out some of his writing on American culture.
It is amazing and his passion for all things coffee. Please welcome Jamie Williams. Welcome, Jamie Rob Chase. Our next panellist brings a wealth of experience from the front lines of British retail and food manufacturing with a career spanning senior commercial roles at Travis Perkins, Samworth Brothers and Tescos.
He now works as an interim consultant and insight director at Emotions Preferred helping businesses navigate complex market dynamics with data-driven strategy and commercial insight. James is also a keen bonsai horticulturalist. Referring to his big ideas on tiny trees, with a sharp eye for consumer trends and a passion for innovation.
Please welcome James Cornish. Welcome James. Very much Rob. Last, but certainly not least, our, our next panellist brings a wealth of experience from the UK's food manufacturing and supply sector as group business director, the business development director at the Billington Group home of Billington Foods and English Provender Company.
He's been instrumental in driving innovation, sustainability, and strategic growth across some of Britain's most established food service and QSR brands. I'm proud to say also that. David will be joining Vision Eyes as Associate commercial director from next week exciting with a sharp commercial mind and a deep understanding of the challenges facing the food industry, a love of sport, and a bigger love of beer.
He owns shares in a craft brewery. And it took his wife a couple of years to realize that which is, yeah, it did., please welcome David Williams. Sorry, David Wilkinson. How'd I get your name wrong? David Wilkins. No,
David Wilkinson: dear Rob, I'm not joining now. So
Rob Iles: welcome you all. I'm, I'm sorry that was a, a very long-winded introduction.
I really wanted to get across your backgrounds. I'm super proud that you've, joined us today and I think. All of those backgrounds whilst different, have a similarity in terms of, you know, understanding the need to look at consumer., I'm going to crack on with the topic now, and the, the topic for today's podcast, as you know, is, is consumer research relevant anymore in today's business environment?
Now look, I'll start by, uh. Referring to a guy called Tom Ellis. Tom Ellis is the partner of Brand Genetics, and he is attending, can Lion 25., the marketing forum Jamie will be familiar with, and he's highlighted on LinkedIn that there is a noticeable absence of insight leadership on any of the panels at Cannes Lion 25.
Uh, Cannes Lion is coming up here on the 16th of June. There's also a study by eMAR, which we've looked at, which is saying that whilst overall market research has gone up in spend over the last two or three years, driven by inflation, that qualitative research has declined by about 20%., and it feels like in the industry, I work in the food and drink industry, that there's a noticeable reduction of budget spend.
On consumer research, it feels like when purse strings are tightened, marketing tends to be in the cross hairs, and within marketing research is one of the first things to be cut. Now, I like to ask you all. What you think of that, but also what kind of research and insights do you use in business? And I'm coming to you, Sharon, but I fully understand that you know, your sectors will be different but may be fascinating to understand your take on how you use research, in your business.
Sharon Cahill: I mean, it's, you know, when you, when you originally proposed this, this podcast and the theme of this podcast, I must admit I was a little bit perplexed, you know, because, you know, research is, is, is and always has been so important. But I suppose, you know, at Core Book Feeling, you know, we're a boutique corporate finance firm.
We're based in the city of London. We advise owners of private businesses on selling their companies. So, you know, we are not selling shoes or soap., you know, we are not commissioning brand trackers or testing ad recall, but insight is absolutely central to everything that we are doing., you know, whether that's understanding why a founder is thinking about a sale or, you know, what buyers are really valuing right now.
Everything we do starts with listening. Everything we do starts with understanding the market., so I suppose I'm sort of here sort of, you know, with a slightly different lens, but hopefully something that will add. You know, value to the conversation., you know, I mean, for instance, you know, a few weeks ago we met a founder in his early sixties, and on the surface of it, you know, it was a standard conversation about timing and valuation.
But through this conversation, you know, really listening and, and, and really understanding, we. Picked up that his real concern was actually looking after his loyal leadership team., these were the people that had helped build the business over 20 years. And just that insight, just that, that small insight that really helped then.
Sort of, it, it shaped the entire deal strategy., and we didn't get that from data. We got that through listening. So, we didn't get that through quantitative. That was qualitative., you know, and, and you know, absolutely everything that we do in the advisory business is about listening and listening to.
To people, and you know, what their motivations are, what their concerns are, you know, what risk means to them., so, you know, I, I very much welcome the views of, of this panel, of, of what is happening in their industries, because in ours it's absolutely central.
Rob Iles: Would you? No, that's really interesting.
And I would you commission research, ad hoc. So, would you be prepared as a company to invest in research rather than do your own desk research? You know, in terms of insights about what people and businesses are looking for? I.
Sharon Cahill: It's an interesting question. I think, you know, ev, everything, all the research that we do fundamentally comes down to the conversations that, that we have.
Whether that's conversations with business owners, whether that's with investors, whether that's with, buyers of business., to date we haven't. Commissioned bespoke research because we find that through our own networks, and through those conversations that, that we're having, that we're actually able to get the, get the insight that we need.
Now, what we would do is really. With all of that information, with all of that data that we have is really then use third parties to really, really help us understand what the true insight is within that. So not necessarily in the gathering of the data, but more in the interpretation of the data and more in really understanding what that insight is like.
Rob Iles: Fascinating. Thank you, Sharon., Jamie, how about you? Well, you know, obviously in the world of advertising, you know, consumer. Needs and, and feelings and thoughts are really key. So, so what about your experience of, of different types of consumer research?
Jamie Williams: Yeah, I mean, you're right Rob. We, we love, ideally, we love to know what consumers think, you know, every step of our process.
It's not always possible and feasible obviously because it's quite expensive and, and, and sometimes the way in which we use consumer research has to depend on the mindset of the brands and clients we work with, their willingness to invest and, you know, that we have quite a broad spectrum of that, you know.
I mean, we have a process. Isobel, we have, we have a program, Isabel, and it starts with. Brand strategy, foundational strategic work, moving towards a brand positioning, and then a, a brand idea and attitude and, and tone of voice. And within that data is, is, is critical in that initial stage.
Consumer data is critical. We love to interrogate the. The organization, the product, the category in which they're operating in and the trends that are going on, and, and then ultimately the consumer and the different consumer., the variety and range of consumer and their different mindsets, life stages, and behaviours.
We inherit quite a lot of, of, quantitative data sets of, when we start working with a brand that we would always sort of immerse dozen and use, and then we sometimes commission our own., but that first stage, you know, quant is, is sort of key for us, I guess. And then as we move down our program at Isabel into creativity, creative development, creative expression and execution, and then ultimately sort of production and then a final creative campaign.
These different forms of consumer research, qualitative becomes hugely valuable at different stages when relevant. So, we can, you know, truly understand if the kind of insights that we're utilizing and, and have kind of uncovered, resonate with consumers. If the messages we're using, if the kind of tone of voice of a brand, if we're changing a, a brand and, and kind of resetting a brand, and giving them a new kind of personality or an evolved personality, how does that fit?
You know, how do consumers see that? Do they like that? Do they resonate with that? And what can we learn? So, so different tools at different stages, I guess. And, and some of it's dictated by the client., you know, we've worked with the likes of Proctor and Gamble who have research kind of embedded in their DNA at every single stage.
They want to know, is this working? Is this, you know, almost, you know, it's not pure, it's inked into their schedules. Then we work with, I don’t know if, if this is. David, you've invested in craft beer. I don’t know if it's Brew dog or not, but we've, worked with Brew Dog a fair bit in the past. Yeah. They're the exact opposite.
Jamie Williams: They sort of just get going and test and learn in real life and, and just sort of, and you, you've seen that because they sometimes make mistakes, quite big costly ones and they sometimes hit gold and, you know, they just accept that and, and crack on. So, so some of it's dictated by the client, but ultimately, you know, we love to know.
What consumers really think and if we can do that at every stage, then it'd be great.
Rob Iles: Brilliant, how about you, James? Let's come, let's come to you and, and if you wouldn't mind just sharing, a bit like Sharon and Jamie, you know, your specific experience, if you're able to touch on your time at Tesco's as well, that'd be really useful.
James Cornish: I think there's, and I was just going to pick up a specific point you just made, Rob, so I'll come back to that in a sec. But I think you've kind of got, you know, my experience of research falls into really two, two key camps. I mean, you've got the, FMCG guys, James mentioned Proctor and Gamble. You know, my experience as Tesco almost that that data insight.
Became, you know, right the way it was kind of the backbone, right the way through the business., and been really strong and really well used. And actually, it's a cultural shift. You have to get people to adopt it and understand it and act on it., and then you kind of get a different cap. And I've just come out the construction industry where there's a huge opportunity to adopt that data and make it.
More of the sort of basis of their decisions. And you know, there, there's sort of these two campuses. One, well, you know, we've got John here, he's been here for 30 years, so he knows everything. But there is about customers and actually almost both are true, but clearly, you've got to validate some of those claims and make sure they're correct.
The point I was going to come back to, right, I thought really interesting is that you mentioned right at the beginning. The quo was reported to be down sort of 20%., and I think, you know, James mentioned.
And there's some alarm bells there ringing for me that we do appear to be having kind of almost an overreliance on quant data in, in, in the market. And that seems to be a trend, you know, you know, just, just from what I'm reading. And I guess, you know, the, if you go back to the question just is it really relevant to business environment?
My challenge would be, no, not, not in the way that it's currently being done., because it's almost become too formulaic, it's become too predictable. We're all looking at the same data and getting the same response. So rather if you are an innovator, you zag when someone else zigs. We're all zigging at the same time.
Or all the big suppliers are zigging at the same time. And actually it's, you know, that could well be why. Are great at doing what they're doing and maybe it's more of a challenge for big companies and we probably all experienced that. So, I think, you know, the. What we try to look at is, is trying to raise that importance of qual data.
You know, whether you are bringing a, a new product to market, whether you're trying to keep, a product relevant to generations that, quite frankly, you know, look at Gen Alpha, that completely living their life in a completely, something completely alien to ourselves., but, but also we're becoming, as we're filing with a research business more important to the world of, you know, merger.
On, a business and actually there's been some quite high profile, areas where you bought a business, you've, you've, bought it on the, on the back of a big growth trajectory that hasn't come to fruition. You end up selling that business, for considerably less after period time.
Sharon Cahill: actually,
James Cornish: if you had that ability to connect.
And this is quiet, connect with those consumers due. We're finding that that's adding a lot of value for relatively little cost into the, into the, into the process. So, I've already gone slightly off piece, Rob, in terms of answering your question, but, you know, covered a couple of
Rob Iles: No, no, as always, it, it was great perspective and I, it's, I, I like you are, are passionate about the, the qual side of research.
I mean, one of the things that, one of the reasons I was keen other than. I love listening to her asking Sharon to join was because I think I, I see in the m and a world and the time I spend there that there is this sort of desire to try and de-risk lots of decisions. And I'm not suggesting, Sharon, this is your approach, but this sort of get to that stage where it becomes so obsessive that that, that even though that extrapolation is still a risk in itself from quant data.
Qual data be, is seen as, seen as irrelevant. I mean, I picked up a quote, from LinkedIn actually. I've never met him. A guy called James Sallows, who's head of strategy at the Lego Group, and he said, we need to make data and inside the engine, not the seatbelt. You know, what he's saying there is that, you know, let's drive through insights, the decision and not just try and de-risk.
The outcome. Now, I, my favourite quote in this, and I haven't used it for a long time, but I thought, why not on this podcast? I'll bring it out again. You know, some of you will probably even know who this is. Anita Roddick, a bit of a heroine of mine in terms of business and what she did. I. Sadly no longer with us, Anita Roddick from The Body Shop said, using retrospective data to drive your business is a bit like using the rear-view mirror to drive the car.
And I, you know, I used to use that quote a lot and I see it relevant now as it was then. I'm not suggesting that Quant data doesn't have its place., I think it's very important., look. Before we get into that, let me, ask David to give his view.
David Wilkinson: in terms of food and drink my view is just picking on what James has just said and what we've just been talking, I think a lot of, because I've always been in business where we get quant data and it's seen as, and I think it is just a, it's a.
So, kind of part. Yeah. We've got Niel and I data that is a kind of, everybody has it. We've had it dealing with, have case forward. I'm a big believer in, so I've always. Had them in or done them in the various roles. I've, I've, had, most recently I've used it, to, for the building group to get into a new market, to get into, break into America.
So, we, we actually used vision eyes, so we kind of, we sat down, and we planned what we wanted to do and what we thought we would do. It's a big selfie in what we wanted to.
Interestingly, the models and everything that works in the UK does work in the US as well. So, we were able to do exactly the same that we would do in the UK and the us. We did, various qual groups. We had online, online questionnaire surveys, and probably one of the biggest things, because we haven't mentioned this, is customer research.
So we also, got a group of, would be bias together, in a kind of informal situation, give them a bit of food, which always helps, and got some really, really good insights from them about what work, what doing what., the customer's a little bit. The actual customer consumer, yes. But the actual customer's, forgotten a little bit in, in insights as well, but for me it's, yeah, it's, it's actually that absolutely vital and I would, I would split it into stuff you've got to have as a fixed cost, I would say, which is a lot more of the stuff that you need for new products, new markets, persuading people on various things.
Rob Iles: thank you, David.
James Cornish: You know, one of the things as an ex-buyer that we used to really grab my attention, you know, when, when suppliers would come see me. because everybody had the, yeah. Quantity data, you know, but actually it's those nuggets that you get in qual data that really make a difference, you know? So, and that's what, you know, grabs your attention and that's what actually probably gives you the incentive to go and do something exciting or creates the advertising campaign or creates.
So, I just, I just wanted to kind of like pull. Because I think in terms of giving you something to almost put your arms around and, and capture and really drive forward for, that's your initiative. And that that separates out, you know, a, a great manufacturer from a, from a, from a good one. And it doesn't have to cost, you know, 50, a hundred grand.
There's some pretty light touches that you can do for a fairly modest fee that makes you stand out above, above the others. So, you know, and actually those sort of light touches doing little often.
Rob Iles: Great. No, thank you. I mean, I was going to actually ask that sort of next question around the qual and quant, but, but let me frame it differently. Your package of insights that you pull together, or you prefer to use, there was, Andy Hill who, heads up all of insights, and the master brand of M&S. So, he has a big role, also you may know Andy James from Samworth Days - he was, on a podcast, which was on LinkedIn last week, and he was talking about his triangulation of data sets. And what he likes to be able to do is kind of combine the data that Sharon was referring to, in food terms, the actual, in M&S terms, the actual purchase data, with customer perception or qual. They have a huge panel of consumers at M&S called the Collective, and then he uses switching data.
So that's his preferred triangulation. I was wondering, Sharon, do you have a package of data, but also recognising your role at Corbett Keeling, but also others as a marketing leader? Have you got a way of combining data sets to give you what you want.
Sharon Cahill: I think, in my present role, very much as, David was saying, in terms of our quantitative data, so you know, really tracking, deal activity, really understanding transaction data, all of that is absolutely vital.
And, and that's an always on, quant data that we have in and, and. And, and actually kind of those numbers are really important. That data is really important. It shows us patterns., but what it rarely does is, is really sort of tells us what, what's kind of underneath, you know, so in our, our world, a sort of a spreadsheet might tell you how a company's performing.
You know, but, but actually it's that qualitative insight, that we get on top of that. So, it's really understanding the founder's story, their motivations, you know, whether they're going to be a good cultural fit with a potential buyer or investor. That's really for us, what makes or breaks a deal., you know, so, so they both matter.
They really both matter, the numbers and the narrative and, and you know, and I think that's also kind of been true in, in previous roles, as well. And, and you know, and I'm also a really big believer in the triangular. That word triangular - yeah of data, because, I think, you know, it's, it's really important that, that, and especially today, that you are actually getting sort of multiple sources.
Of insight, but then it's how you are layering that on and then really interpreting it., you know, you cannot rely on just one source of data., you know, it's, it's like, you know, sort of, for me, the quant data is, is sort of the foundations that help you sort of build the house, but then the qual data is, is really then what, what allows you to add.
Um, the, the, you know, the flesh to the bones and, and, and all of the rest of it. So, so, you know, I mean, I think, you know, we, I've, I've probably been through multiple, research methodologies on, on both, both of the, the qual and the qual and, and they all have their purpose.
Rob Iles: I love that. I love the way you, you, you kind of frame that in, in terms of adding how each element adds as the value.
Sharon, thank you. Jamie, I mean, have you, have you sort of moving that on a bit? How, how do you, at Isabelle, how do you make insight everyone's job? How, how do you make it. Not just a preserve of a certain team. And, and you know, I'd imagine in advertising it's probably slightly easier. I may, you know, I may have got that wrong than it is in in other businesses, but how, how, how do you make it the kind of always on?
I love that expression, Sharon. Always on, element of, you know, how your work.
Jamie Williams: it's a good question. because we've got lots of other things to get on with and, but I mean, I think, uh. I think was, you know, advertising agencies is, as you know, Rob had been, departmentalized, you know, particularly the, the bigger the agency, the sort of greater divide between department traditionally.
And you have account managing, account management, you have planning, and you have creative production. You know, it's always been in the way. And, and even in, independent agencies like Isabel, you know, we still have those skill sets, but. Ad people tend to be the best ad people tend to be, you know, good planners regardless of, of where you sit in that department.
And, ultimately, certainly from Isabel point of view, and I think, you know, good, good agencies, are kind of brand, brand people first., you know, it's not just about kind of the advertising product at the end. It's about working with brands to really understand, you know, get under the skin of, of a brand and, and what it is and how it can be utilized to generate kind of, you know, commercial reward for an organization.
That, that's essentially what we do., and insights critical for that across, you know, any stage of the process. They're the best, the best creative are really good strategy planners. You know, similar with account people who are kind of business partners and client service partners, at that heart.
Um, you know, fantastic, strategist as well. So, you know, there's lots of things to do in building brands and building campaigns, but I guess I think, yeah, everyone, it's everyone's role within our agency certainly to, to help build brands and insights in the heart of that.
Rob Iles: Yeah. Thank you. I mean, the, the, the reason, I, I kind of wanted to know that is because I'll come to you, James, because.
Do you see any, any resistance? And if so, where for this, for, for investing in this, you know, in the, in the world you are in, you know, you are, you are, you are working with, brands and, businesses do, do, do you see any resistance to investment? Mm.
James Cornish: So, I certainly see during challenging times that clearly, you know, belts are getting tightened.
And I think, you know, mentioned earlier about, you know, if there's a research budget, and especially if the quo cost goes up, that probably starts to absorb some of the more discretionary stuff or what's considered discretionary. I think, you know our angle would be, you come back to the point I made earlier, is it, or should it be discretionary?
Actually, probably underplaying the importance of it, and, and therefore we do see it squeezed. We're realistic. I think the emphasis, Rob, that we really put on it is how can we really get, enable our clients to get the value? And a huge part, we take responsibility for that because if, if it ends up just being a document on the shelf, then we failed.
That's our kind of mantra. And as part of that, we really want to make it actionable., now just come back from the far east. We've been working with a Japanese client and actually bringing that to life was we, you know, everybody wants it really concise, they want to have that connection with the consumer, but ideally they want it on one page.
You know, this is the, this is always the perpetual challenge. But, you know, we did come back from that. Piece and said, right here's your page you need to give to your development team. That's the, that's the development brief that your chef needs to work on a snacking food product. Here's the, here's the page to give to your advertising agency.
And by the way, we're quite happy to go and help you brief them. And here's the page you give, that's your packaging with, you know, right the way down to here's the colours that we believe it should be. So, there's too much, I think there's too much, and we hear this back from, you know, speaking to my ex-colleagues at Tesco and they're saying.
Do research come back and said, look, look in this area, we think there's an opportunity there. Well, if you believe the process, believe your recommendations., so, you know, we put a lot of emphasis on that and making sure. So, I think the value creation, so, you know, your, your, your question is, is it, is it getting squeezed?
And the answer is that yes, at the moment, I, I would probably challenge that actually, when you kind of knuckle down into tough times, you have got to spend in this area because that's what's going to differentiate you to others. But also, we take that mind learning about how you make sure that everybody through that business really sees the value of it.
And it's not just with the marketeers; it needs to be right the way through the organization. And we're, and we're absolutely prepared to help with that.
Rob Iles: Brilliant. I love that.
David Wilkinson: Can I add on the resistance bit, Rob?
Rob Iles: Yeah, please. I was going to come to you.
David Wilkinson: I would kind of go back to what Jamie was saying earlier, the likes of p and g and people like that. It's in the kind of DNA, I think is what you said, Jamie. I think that's right. Businesses that I've worked for, you know, Billington group or places I've, I've worked. It's always a bit of a fight. I don't think I’ve; I don't think I've met an FD that I've had a fight about research within my whole career.
How much, how much is that? because it is expensive and, and, and then kind of well, but what do we actually get for it? How do you actually measure it? What do we get from it? And it, it, it's quite hard through organizations that are not marketing or brand driven to persuade people that insights are absolutely vital.
Because without them you don't get, you don't get anywhere. You know, if don't reason. Yeah, but for what you're doing. But I would say there is quite my, in my, experience, there's quite a lot of resistance in businesses unless you're in a big branded one, to research.
Rob Iles: I, I think that's so true and in, certainly in FMCG as, as you said, and I, I, I'm just going back to what James said, and it was interesting, his perspective as when he was a buyer at Tesco.
Although I have to say, James, you were a decent and fair buyer, all I would say is I love that point around, and this is again, a rarity I think in, in buying still that point where you saw the value, the differentiation of. Interesting qual nuggets being brought to you by suppliers., and that, that was kind of my hope sitting on the other side of the desk when I was trying to sell to buyers of supermarkets that if you did invest some money in stuff like that, it was fresh and unique insights.
Therefore, that is going to be a bit more exciting and different for a buyer to hear, and it will get them more excited and inspired. I'm trying to get that argument across internally with an FD as David said. Was difficult., but it, look, we in this in conscious of time. What, what I want to do is get everyone's view now on how you see research evolving.
Obviously, there's so much talk about ai. We haven't mentioned ai.mm-. And just on that point before I move on, the, Andy Hill from m and s was asked by me that question on that podcast about ai and his response was, he sees AI as facilitating interpretation, saving time in terms of, you know, routing through and filtering out, you know, the value from research.
But he certainly is not, handing over that responsibility for interpreting where the commercial value will come, and joining that as, as Sharon says, this triangulation and kind of, you know, how do we actually get the most and squeeze it out. Let me ask you, and I'll start with you again, Sharon, if, if you wouldn't mind, where do you see research evolving and, you know, again, fascinating your perspective at Corbert Keeling, where do you see research evolving and what innovations are you seeing coming from research?
Sharon Cahill: Undoubtedly there, there is a lot happening in, in tech, in everybody's world, including the m and a world, and, you know, whether that's ai, real time analytics, sentiment tracking, whatever, you know, I think what it's doing is it's making insight more immediate., and that's a really good thing. So, you know, at Corbett Keeling, you know, we're already using, you know, these tools to track global deal activity and in sort of near real time, you know, to really understand who's buying at what multiples and really how demand is shifting.
That's hugely important, but I think it's also. You know, as, as you've sort of quoted Rob, you know, tech can only take you so far. It is a really useful tool, but it can only take you so far. And I think that human insight is still what matters, and it matters hugely., you know, and, and you know, I just, I just think, you know.
For instance, you know, we had a, we had a client that was approached by a buyer that, you know, on paper looked absolutely ideal for them. You know, the right sector experience, great valuation, cultural fit, et cetera, you know, but it was only through our network, not through our tools, not through ai. The, we kind of, you know, we, we heard, you know, that this particular buyer had a habit of dragging their feet, long due diligence, endless decision cycles, you know, and that wasn't ideal for the founder that we were working with, who really wanted clarity and momentum and, and that.
Insight changed everything so, you know, on paper. Perfect., but actually, you know, we paused, we advised the client to hold back and ultimately we found a better buyer for them and, and one that was able to move much more quickly., you know, and actually as I say, no AI tool could have picked that up for us.
It didn't come from a dashboard., it actually came from us paying attention, picking up the phone, and listening to people that we trust. So, I think as long as we don't. Lose those valuable, universal timeless skills of, you know, picking up the phone, talking to people, and really knowing who you can trust.
The automation, the AI is, is great. It's speeding things up. It's making it more immediate, but it's certainly not replacing, the human factor. Certainly not in in, in our m and a world.
Rob Iles: Brilliant. No, absolutely. Brilliant. Thank you very much, Sharon. Thank you. James, how about you? So how do you, you know, pick up the same question?
James Cornish: I think, I think we have to reflect on. Ever complex world, that's becoming more fragmented in terms of route to market., and, you know, and also, different generations thinking completely differently. We did some, research recently and I'm, I'm, I'm probably, I'm noting we are probably all Gen X on this call, right?
So, you know, actually, oh, David's not. Look at that.
David Wilkinson: Yeah, input, you know, you'll be.
James Cornish: an honourable Gen X, don't worry, Dave. So, but actually trying to, you know, the serious point actually trying to understand, you know, or add the different generations, gen, Zs at and our alphas that are coming through. And the alpha's really interesting because they've actually got loads of disposable income, or significantly more than we did probably when we were that age.
But they're not even earning yet. So, yeah. And how do we as Gen X really understand all those different layers? In an increasingly fragmented market with, with several route to, several routes to market. So, I was to. manufacturer of sports drinks or protein drinks recently, and they said, James, it's a bit of a nightmare because yes, okay, we've got supermarkets, but they, they're not, they're not, you know, they're not as, as, this isn't their only channel, that they supply through.
You've got gyms, you've got online, you've got, you know, small shops, and suddenly this is all really fragmented. So I, I see that there's a need actually to do more quantum research., but probably in more frequent, lighter touch methods, so that you actually keep in touch and keep relevant with all these different streams and all these different generations because for the simple reason that if, if you don't, someone else will and they'll be, you know, their products are going to be relevant and then they're going to win in the market.
So that's kind of what I see as a direction travel. I don't see any sort of huge simplicity coming out soon, and I certainly don't look at my kids and. They do not watch tv. You know, they are watching YouTube and they're watching different channels and their influences and where they're getting their information from is completely different.
You know, they cannot get their head round. So, when I watched TV, it was between 10 to four and half past five, and then that was it. You know, for the rest of the rest of the day, it's completely alien to them. And there's a real job here for us to start thinking about this new wave of consumers that are coming into our market and, and exactly how do we adapt our advertising?
How do we adapt our different products? Because there's not going to be one marketing strategy that ticks all the boxes. It's all, this is going to have to be a layered approach., if you are really going to make sure that your business remains fit for the future.
Rob Iles: So, so, right. And I couldn't, couldn't agree more with you there, James.
I mean, it's interesting from our perspective, vision, eyes for a second., what we decided to do was, whilst we were a bit antipathetic about the whole kind of American segmentation of the names, you know, like boomers and, millennials and all this stuff, we decided to, embrace it. And what we did was we created two, two cohorts, the Zuma cohort, which does actually include David and you.
So it kind of is, is that sort of 50 to 65-year-old, which I think the point you were making is, seems to be funding a lot of the purchasing patterns of the younger generation still., and it's fascinating to see, in my own personal house as my own personal piece of, data set., two of my. 20 something kids have returned to the nest and, they don't seem to be contributing to the grocery bill.
That's by the buy. So, purchase decisions aren't being made in Tesco Isles. They're being made in Iles's kitchen and people are saying, mom, this, we've run out of x, y, and brand. You know, and, and I think it's quite fascinating. But we also look at the millennials, which is 20-year-olds. Because we think that, you know, that piece when you are at Uni leaving Uni starting work, you know, then you are, you're starting to kind of develop patterns, and I do totally agree with you.
It's fa it's fascinating that, and I think there's still a big job to, to be done with explaining how this is not just American. Jargon, it is actually relevant to try and focus in on, on, on cohorts. Mm-.,
Sharon Cahill: James, I think that's, you know, just listening to you now, it's just making me think actually, you know, how important that is, sort of in my world as well, because yes, a lot of our clients are these baby.
Boomer business owners who are now starting to think about retirement, but the buyers of those businesses are often younger, more values led international and, and their expectations are shifting. So, understanding that is really important in terms of, you know, how they feel about leadership and risk and even kind of tone.
So, you know, I think it's not just about what people are buying, but it's also how they're behaving now and really understanding those different behaviours.
Rob Iles: and, so right. And, and, and you see, don't you in M&A, you see, especially with, founder led family businesses that you work with, Sharon, you see that dynamic within the, the business itself with the different generations and, and the different perspectives, and all of that.
That's fascinating. And, and Jamie, going back to that question then around. Evolution of research and innovations. You know, what, what, what are you seeing? And I, I imagine, I'm thinking you're at the cutting edge of this in the sexy advertising world in central London. You must
Jamie Williams: have innovation. Very, I'm at the very cutting edge, Rob and James.
And, and in, and with that in mind, James, depending on your definition, I actually sneak in as a millennial. So, but I, not big deal. Take it all back., any, but no, to your point, Rob, I mean. There's all sorts going on, isn't there? In, in every category. And I would say I'd pin it down to two points in research that we see.
The first being like huge innovation tech, all led by ai, as you've all pointed out, obviously, and, and like every single category where AI is influencing, it's, it's all about mass efficiency and scale and speed., and that's happening in research and this rise of synthetic data., and there's these, you know, kind of very, very cheap or free ways of doing lots of research.
And you know, whilst there is definitely the potential to kind of create themes out of quite sort of large, complex data pools that might not have been possible before, you know, so there's definitely merit in it and there'll be lots of efficiencies. As I say, the flip side is that reliance on it and the loss of the, the nuggets of and, and juicy stuff that you get from more.
Qualitative focus groups that, you know, are everything to us. So, there's a definite trend. And then the second one that we, I think we touched on Al already, but there's a definite move for being more kind of multi-data source and not just relying on sort of fragmented parts of the business, presenting their data forward and actioning stuff for now, and trying to see it more holistically taking your kind of classic brand tracking data.
Your sales and your commercial data, as well as your social listening data, any sort of data you get from outside trends, digital data, and then putting it all into one, sort of pool, triangulation pool as, as we described earlier, and, and taking like big learnings from that., and I think there is a, a recognized, recognition that, that, recognition that that is the way forward and, it's difficult to do because organizations.
Are often becoming more fragmented, not less, but, but I see that as like the, as the holy grail that people are trying to get towards.
Rob Iles: Yeah. That's brilliant. And I do, I do see your., your industry is kind of at the forefront of this and, you know, when you started talking about the collisions of insights and, and, and, and bringing it all together, I think you do lead the way, I have to say.
Look, I'm conscious of time and I know we kind of, over ran a bit, if you are able to give us a few more minutes, I just wanted to sort of get David's, answer to the question and then we'll summarize and go. Is, that okay with everyone? So, David, if you wouldn't mind giving your thoughts on the manufacturing side.
David Wilkinson: Well, there's not, I mean, to be honest, I, there's not too much to add to what everybody's just said. It's about ai, it's about, speed and it's about relevance. so, I think methods are getting. More and more sophisticated. I take what James says as well., I think, kind of linking into things like the use, you know, social media as a, as a method of getting things, you've got to adapt as you, as you go along.
So, for me, in without taking too much time, I think everybody's right. I think there's, it's, it's getting quicker. There's a use of ai and I think it's getting more and more sophisticated and the ability to target specific sectors or segment.
Rob Iles: That's brilliant. Okay. I mean, I look awesome. A, a really interesting perspective.
Wish we'd had another hour, to be honest. Everyone's busy. We're going to get back to our, our day jobs now., I just want to thank you all for an amazing contribution. really fascinating to see from all your different perspectives. This sort of common thread, which is. We do think research is important. We have to fight a bit harder for it.
Perhaps we have to do a better job in explaining the relevance of it. Staying on top and being the advocates in our business, I think is key. If there's any questions when we post this on LinkedIn, if there's any questions, please come back to our panellists directly using their LinkedIn accounts.
I hope that's fine with everyone., and then we'll be returning with the, the C sweet spot, again in probably early August, late July., and we'll be looking at growth enablers and how CEOs. What buttons they need to press to drive growth in the tricky markets going forward. Just once again, thank you so much for, for joining us today.
Thank you to everyone.